We can see that as parents with our children. So doctors give medical interventions on newborns to make sure that body parts essentially conform to social expectations. One, it's as if somehow it's trans people's fault that gender exists, when it's like we are hurt-, CHASE STRANGIO: It's the opposite. We didn't do this to you. If everybody goes and does the same thing, that's not- it doesn't work that way. We’ll be live-streaming the Senate impeachment trial starting at 1 p.m. Eastern time today, as we do every day during the impeachment trial. And we are every day going to fight back against that. CHRIS HAYES: Let's take a 65-year-old, generally open-minded liberal, who is not particularly bigoted about trans folks, but also just a little unclear. CHRIS HAYES: I remember being amazed that that failed. And it’s at risk of passing. CHASE STRANGIO: So, there are three cases before the court that are set to be argued on October 8th. Isn't it the case that life involves trade-offs, and politics involves trade-offs, just inescapably? But the background context, I think, to that is actually thinking deeply about the nature of gender, the nature in which political and social systems construct gender and use gender in all sorts of ways, both in capitalism, for marketing, in social orders for hierarchy. And as you'll see this conversation is as much about the law and its limitations as it is about trans rights, specifically. CHRIS HAYES: All right. It's as much about the way identity works, as it is specifically about trans rights. We need your help to sustain this urgent and vital work through the election and beyond, so please make a monthly or one-time donation today! CHASE STRANGIO: So I graduated high school in 2000. So that is another way that we’re talking about incredibly dangerous interventions in the survival of trans young people. Although again, our subjective experience is constrained by the possibilities that are imposed upon us. CHASE STRANGIO: So that's one thing that happened. And so that, again, is a sort of logical turn to the legal system where you can say, "I am just like you." CHASE STRANGIO: Yes. Its Threat Hasn’t Vanished. I often will start out a talk, I mean, I am a civil rights and constitutional lawyer who fundamentally doesn't believe in the Constitution and the legal system. What is the status of that case? And of course, in the moment, they were completely focused on disruption and political organizing and... CHASE STRANGIO: And not dying. Of course, people raised in that tradition can see it as part of the universe, which is the way these categories work, but the idea that gender was like that, the idea that gender was not a part of the universe, that it was something constructed and performed socially, was a radical idea. I don't mean to say ACT UP was not the sort of radical, political resistance movement that it was, and I think we have to acknowledge that their ability to access the government in the end was inextricable from the fact that there was white male leadership. CHRIS HAYES: What has that done to your relationship with him? One day, while waiting for a friend at Penn Station in New York City, I was approached by an older man. Now we’re in a context where that’s what lawmakers are saying to the youth who are watching. That seems a distinct possibility. CHRIS HAYES: You sound like me talking about cable news. CHASE STRANGIO: So, there are three cases before the court that are set to be argued on October 8th. That's the whole question. CHASE STRANGIO: I think we think of that and because of the stereotypes around masculinity and femininity, but actually in participation, it isn't true. And that was sort of inevitable, but I think tracing the progression is sad. You know they're hating on us, but they're consuming our bodies in this way because it's sort of like when people are gender transgressive, that something signals something sexual and deviant, and that then makes people think about sex, so there's this very way in which particularly trans women, trans women of color are sexualized or criminalized as sex workers, so it's not unrelated into how representation has taken off, so we have to really think about that because then in turn, the people who aren't on the big screens are still on the street being attacked and criminalized because there's a backlash to the very notion of seeing that which was formerly unseen. And apparently, the stories are that Donald Trump was frustrated, and so in July of 2017, sort of out of nowhere, to the surprise of everyone including his defense secretary, he tweets the trans military ban in a series of three tweets. So rescinding the education guidance for trans students was one of the first things that Sessions and DeVos did in February of 2017. That's just the way it is. CHRIS HAYES: I like actually having things to talk to people about that are not politics that can bridge divides. Because by making them invisible, we're suggesting that there could be an intervention that is somehow harmless. And when you have government officials with the most power in the state telling young people that they either don’t exist or that they shouldn’t, we know that that exacerbates the rates of suicide. is presented by MSNBC and NBC News, produced by the "All In" team, and features music by Eddie Cooper. That's exactly what it is. Different people do different things, and not everyone has to run after the ball. On Thursday, we’ll be joined by the actor, the director, the writer Viggo Mortensen about his new film called Falling and Thursday’s performance here in Salt Lake City — rather, in Park City, at the Egyptian Theatre of Howard Zinn’s A People’s History of the United States. He has also worked on lawsuits challenging North Carolina's infamous anti-trans laws, HB2 and HB142, and on Gavin Grimm's trans rights case before the United States Supreme Court. Let's see the consequences and lay them out so we can understand them.". So I think because we think of sort of transgression out of femininity in women's sports, we associate it with queerness and sort of lesbian and bi women, but that's not actually true, I think, in terms of what people feel safe and comfortable with. I hope you will too, and I think it's one of those, Chase is such a deep, profound, and compact thinker that it's one of those conversations that I think I'm probably going to listen to a few times to make sure that everything penetrates.